oil pump

[steve traynor]

has any body tried or has knowledge of using a four outlet oul pump(rg 500) instead of premixing when using an ejector exhaust to lube rotor tips and bearings

[Malc]

Hi Steve,I have such pump for the RC588 but it will not be used, at least to start with, because this will allow differing amounts of oil to be used for bearings and tips.From memory, when one was fitted to a road bike that was tested by the media some years ago, it belched smoke at low revs. Whether this was due to a set up problem, I dont know, but It would be very probable that the tips would require less oil than the bearings at lower revs.Malc

[steve traynor]

anybody know how much oil is delivered by pump to bearings and how much eventually to tips with standard pump

[Malc]

In theory, all the oil pumped to the bearings is then passed on to the seals and burnt in the combustion chambers, but the quality of the oil has diminished by the time it gets to the seals, on a standard system. Temperature being the main variable in the quality of the oil reaching the seals.When I first started racing the red bike I got a bit of bad advice from the factory which was to set the oil pump at maximum setting and not to mix any oil with the fuel. This bike still uses standard air flow and carbs. 6 laps of Mallory and the temp guage was around 200c (air cooled). Over 200 degrees and I needed to pull in plus didn't like sound of engine.Next race, mixed oil with fuel, oil pump still at max setting but temp was lower and eng sounded better. then went on to try different ratios of oil to find a compromise of between clean running and plug fouling. 2% found to be Ok but use warming up plugs before race. Oil pump set at full throttle/maximum stroke. This figure would not work on a road bike though as there would be more oil than required at lower throttle openings. The RC 588 will run double this because of the ejector exhaust, but again it will be trial and error.I know this is not much help for a road bike though but it may be a starting point.Malc

[Richard Negus]

quote="steve traynor"has any body tried or has knowledge of using a four outlet oul pump(rg 500) instead of premixing when using an ejector exhaust to lube rotor tips and bearingsThe pump to use is one fitted on the early type fan-cooled twin-rotor aero engines made by Norton and then Mid-West.It has two main outlets to feed the main bearings and two secondary outlets to feed the inlet ports. Main outlets feed three times as much oil as the secondaries.It's very similar to the standard pump, with the same mounting flange and drive dog. Cable operation is opposite rotation but can be modified.Some police IP2's were fitted with this pump in an effort to make them last longer between failures.I don't recall what the pump was originally fitted to, but it may have been a three cylinder Suzuki two-stroke (GT380/550/750 perhaps ?) or a Kawasaki KH250/400R.

[Richard Negus]

Another 'just-after-pressing-submit' thought.Some the NRS588 (or was it RCW588) race bikes had an auxiliary feed direct to the rotor bearings by means of a spark-eroded oilway along each end of the eccentric shaft. These used the four outlet pump, main feed going to the main bearings as usual and secondary feed to the rotor bearings. Fuel mix lubricated the tip seals as with any other ejector engine.R.

[Malc]

The pump I have which is as used on the race bikes is a 4 outlet RG 500 pump.I am 99% sure that the pumps used would not have been off any of the triples as they were all 3 outlet pumps apart from the GT 750 Suzuki which had a 'distributer' with 6 outlets.I used to do a lot of work on the Suzuki and Kawasaki triples and raced the H1 500 and GT 750 and can't remember any triple with a 4 outlet pump. I even used to run a Suzuki GT380 as a commute bike for over a year and found it very capable all rounder as working in the trade it was rare to keep any bike that long!Malc

[Malc]

[Some police IP2's were fitted with this pump in an effort to make them last longer between failures.This makes the IP2 seem a bit dire, I remember being told (on a course at Nortons) that these engines were extremely reliable, and thats why Nortons gave a 3 year warranty on them! Good job they didn't give a 3 year warranty on the gearboxes as well. Always some good jokes told. Anyway, did these pumps help?

[steve traynor]

i have an rg500 4outlet pump so if 2 feeds go to bearings 1 divided between tips(ala 3 cylinder pump) and 1 blocked i wonder if that would suffice to tips without over oiling ,i know its trial and error but error are expensive

[Richard Negus]

I sorted through my 'pump' drawer today and found four 4-outlet pumps that will fit a Norton and one bigger 4-outlet in a Suzuki box marked 'GT750'. Unfortunately, my camera was not to hand but I'll try again tomorrow.I had always believed that the 4-outlet pump was for a 3-cylinder/4-bearing crank two-stroke where the oil was pumped into the main bearings - but thinking about it now, where's the logic in putting a lesser amount of oil into the centre crank than the two outside cranks ?Certainly the Norton-sized pumps had different outputs from pairs of outlets by a factor of 3 : 1 as, in the aero application, the pumps ran at a fixed 'throttle' setting which was calibrated on a test rig and the flow rates from all four outlets were checked.R..

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys, A question, do air cooled rotaries run hotter as the miles build up? When my Classic was new, and for a good few thousand miles after, it ran at about 105'c, then as the miles clocked it slowly crept up and now seems to have stabalised at about 140'c (this for the last 20 odd thousand miles,) and it made no differance when I ran the bike without the fairing on, just took a bite longer to reach said 140'c. Regards J.B.

[Malc]

Just had a look at the RG pump, it has on the box 16100-21A00. I doubt very much that this model of pump for the RG would pump different amounts out of 2 of the outlets as per the smaller type you have used Richard, logically each cyl on the RG will want the same amount of oil.Steve,with reference to blanking off one of the 4 outlets on this pump, you would need to run a return pipe to the tank to avoid damage to the pump.Richard, the GT750 Suzuki pump will not have any conventional spigot outputs to connect oil pipes onto because the oil pumps are screwed to an alloy block with oil passages in with the oil pumped downwards through this to a plastic 'plate' with 6 O rings on it each with its oun outlet pipe attached.John, did you run on different plugs for the first few thousand miles when the eng temperature was different?Malc

[Interpol2471]

That's a good point Malc as my IP2 runs slightly cooler now running on Iridium 9 grade plugs.

[Richard Negus]

In addition to two types of 4-outlet pump, I found a single output pump and a three outlet one also.I failed miserably to attach photos to this reply, but you'll find a picture of each type in Members Gallery.1M Pump is the single feed, fixed output, Mikuni pump fitted to the Norton 731 drone engine.3M Pump is the three outlet one which I believe has three equal flow rates ; don't know what it was originally fitted to.4M Pump is the one which will fit a rotary and has been used, at a fixed flow rate, on the early twin rotor aero engines to feed main bearings and inlet ports.4M BIG Pump is about 50% larger than the one above. Following Malc's information, I now have no idea what it was originally fitted to.Any two-stroke freak recognises the 3M and 4M BIG pumps ?R.

[Malc]

Looked at the oilp pump pics.3 outlet, I am about 95% sure is Kawasaki triples.4 outlet large is the same as I have which I was told was RG 500 and has Suzuki part no with it which I think is the original packaging.4 outlet small, I would guess at RD500 as when the 4 outlet large was shown to an RD500 owner he said that RD500 was also 4 outlet but he thought it to be smaller.Single outlet, dont know what model that would have been fitted to.Would be interesting to know what application the pumps with the variable outlets were originally fitted to. I have never had to replace a pump, on a Norton or any other bike fitted with a smilar Mikuni pump. Had a 'gentleman' try and claim warranty for his fairly new RD 125 that had seized, he hadn't run it out of oil though and the oil tank was full. Had to try and tactfully ask how there was oil in the tank but none in the oil pipes!Malc

[Richard Negus]

quote="Malc"Looked at the oil pump pics.3 outlet, I am about 95% sure is Kawasaki triples.4 outlet large is the same as I have which I was told was RG 500 and has Suzuki part no with it which I think is the original packaging.Thanks for the identification.4 outlet small, I would guess at RD500 as when the 4 outlet large was shown to an RD500 owner he said that RD500 was also 4 outlet but he thought it to be smaller.This is the one with different outputs from pairs of outlets by a factor of 3 : 1 - so probably not from a 4-cylinder two-strokeSingle outlet, dont know what model that would have been fitted to.Outboard motor, perhaps ? Something that's not critical on excess oil supply at low rpm.R.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Malc, For the earlier mllage I ran the bike on the "factory fitted" plugs, and replaced them with NGK C8E's as recomended by the (as then) Norton dealer in Witham,(the originals being so expensive!) and have used them ever since, but it's a thought. Come on guys,can I have some comparison temp's? pretty please. J.B.