IP2 strip advice

[gripper]

I'm just in the process of removing my IP2 engine for a rebuild and have come across three items that maybe someone out there can help with. 1. On the RH induction pipe between carb and engine there are two tappings that are currently linked by a piece of tube. I presume that this was part of the previous single rotor idle system. (mine is post that system) can I block these two tappings and do away with the tube and eliminate a potential source of leakage? 2. There is a witness mark inside the primary chaincase made by the fingers of the clutch diaphram spring. In addition when looking at the gearbox sprocket it seems close to the inner edge of it's casing and the final drive chain has left a mark on that casing. This would indicate to me that the whole gearbox main shaft is too far to the right hand side of the bike and maybe a spacer is missing. (I haven't checked the primary chain alignment yet) any ideas? and finally, two of the three cap heads holding the auxiliary flywheel on have started to round off and I'm reluctant to tap a allen key socket drive into place for fear of damaging the shaft/bearings. Is the best bet here to drill the heads off the screws and then remove the remainder on the bench?Yours in anticipationGripper

[Richard Negus]

quote="gripper" 1. On the RH induction pipe between carb and engine there are two tappings that are currently linked by a piece of tube. I presume that this was part of the previous single rotor idle system. (mine is post that system) can I block these two tappings and do away with the tube and eliminate a potential source of leakage? Blank them off - they're redundant. They were used to scavenge oil from around the main bearings - rather pointless in view of the need to keep oil in the bearings. 2. There is a witness mark inside the primary chaincase made by the fingers of the clutch diaphram spring. In addition when looking at the gearbox sprocket it seems close to the inner edge of it's casing and the final drive chain has left a mark on that casing. Yessir! They all do that - not enough clearanceThis would indicate to me that the whole gearbox main shaft is too far to the right hand side of the bike and maybe a spacer is missing. I don't think so - there aren't any spacers to miss. There is a remote possibility that the double-row ball bearing in the gearbox cover plate is beginning to fail, allowing the clutch assembly to move to the right, but that wouldn't affect the drive sprocket position which is governed by the roller bearing on the sleeve gear.two of the three cap heads holding the auxiliary flywheel on have started to round off and I'm reluctant to tap a allen key socket drive into place for fear of damaging the shaft/bearings. Is the best bet here to drill the heads off the screws and then remove the remainder on the bench?Lock the shaft using the balance weight tool and take the complete flywheel off. Then press a Torx key into the remains of the hex socket. Or, if you're going to replace the axial bearing anyway, smack the Torx in with the flywheel still on the shaft. (Without prejudice/at your own risk/etc.) You won't damage the shaft or main/rotor bearings. If that fails, try and break the Loctite grip with heat on the flywheel.R.

[gripper]

Thanks for the advice Richard, I duly knocked up a counterbalance locking lever and it worked well, Better than I imagine the flywheel locking bar works. All three nuts including the clutch put up a damn good fight and the only casualty was the front air filter screw in the centre plate which is now a very short stud! I managed to get the starter motor off prior to removing the engine and a ratchet strop over the frame and hooked onto the ends of the main shaft saved the wife from having to throw herself under a falling engine while she assisted. Having watched Graham's video, I'm impressed by how clean his engine was when dismantling and depressed by how filthy mine is. So far I've got the LH end plate off and the stationary gear and bearing housing and the inside of the rotor are well coked up. Also plenty of loose carbon gritty bits in the transfer ports. Might be worth taking these off from time to time and cleaning them out. Any good tips on removing this baked on stuff apart from careful scraping? Have many other ROC members done their own engines or is it too far into uncharted territory? I'll keep you posted as to how the job is going.Gripper

[Richard Negus]

quote="gripper" I managed to get the starter motor off prior to removing the engine and a ratchet strop over the frame and hooked onto the ends of the main shaft saved the wife from having to throw herself under a falling engine while she assisted. What you need is a box of the correct height to sit the engine on whilst you slide it into position. Complete with manifold, starter and air box. Then it will slide onto the gearbox dowels with minimum effort and risk to fingers/thumbs. the stationary gear and bearing housing and the inside of the rotor are well coked up. Also plenty of loose carbon gritty bits in the transfer ports.Another argument for a better oil = one that can stand a higher temperature and leaves less residue when it does carbonise.The carbon bits will have found their way into the frame too. Wash it out thoroughly, and blow out the frame scavenge pipe as well. Any good tips on removing this baked on stuff apart from careful scraping?Scraping for the aluminium bits, but chuck steel bits (rotors, stationary gears, shaft, etc) into a bucket of strong caustic soda solution for a day or two. Usual precautions of course - gloves, goggles, paramedics standing by ...... That will soften it so you can brush/scrape it off easily.R.

[Richard Negus]

"What you need is a box of the correct ......" but of course, with the engine already out, what's the correct height ??????The GFB (Genuine Factory Box) is 11" high and measures 12" x 9" in plan view.R.

[Malc]

Never knew there was a 'Genuine Factory Box'. I used a similar one for a while but found it only to be adequate, then started using small scissor platform with exhaust manifold overhanging so it can also be pivoted when fitting. Obviously can be adjusted whether bike is on paddock stand or centre stand and air box does not catch on fairing (if fitted) when getting in place. Not cheap at about £45 but never been so easy, plus has many other uses. A good investment if much work is intended.I could not use caustic at work to clean components so rotors were soaked in 'industrial use' pressure wash fliud for as long as possible to soften the carbon then finished off with Elbow Grease.Malc

[gripper]

The engine is fully stripped now revealing some gouging on the RH end plate and RH face of the center plate and some light scoring on the LH face of the center plate. The scavenge pipe from the LH main bearing was loose and hence leaking, so the rear of the fins area is pretty sticky. Both stationary gears, rotor housings and rotors look in good order. The caustic soda did a good job of loosening the carbon ( and the top of my head) but there is a lot of cleaning to be done. I haven't managed to get enough heat into the end plates to remove the main bearing housings. Yes Richard, the frame has plenty of carbon granules in, another mucky job and difficult without tipping the bike upside down. Is powder coating a suitable finish for the end and center plates? They are pretty badly stained and the current finish is lifting in places.

[Richard Negus]

quote="gripper"The caustic soda did a good job of loosening the carbon ( and the top of my head) You're not supposed to dip your head in it !I haven't managed to get enough heat into the end plates to remove the main bearing housings.Heat is not necessary when dismantling ; a normal bench press will push them out cold. Yes Richard, the frame has plenty of carbon granules in, another mucky job and difficult without tipping the bike upside down.Jet wash & then mop out with rag & paper Is powder coating a suitable finish for the end and center plates? Polyester powder coat was the original finish ; chemical strip/grit blast/mask/powder coat. Have a look at the IP2 I've done recently (in Gallery). Redditch have done several for me in the past and know what needs masking.Returning from Wrexham on Thursday, I should be at 3P's to talk to Norman J ; bring the bits if you need an opinion.R.

[gripper]

Many thanks, see you there,Dave

[gripper]

The engine is back from the powder coaters looking very nice. Lots of cleaning to be done prior to re-assembly. Any advice for type of loctite to use on the threads and any bits that do not require it Richard?Dave E

[gripper]

After cleaning the powder coated bits a zillion times, I finally plucked up courage to re-assemble the engine. All went as planned apart from opening up my hand on the end of the main shaft, (An hour earlier I had got a nose bleed and thought it had started again) A bit of blood in with the welseal works wonders, I hope. The LH end plate dropped on Like it had synchro-mesh and only one tip seal had a quick look at life inside the combustion chamber before getting back in the groove. Top tip, if you work in a quiet environment ie no radio you may hear the offending seal make it's bid for freedom. Now to have a butchers in the gearbox!

[Richard Negus]

Congratulations !

[gripper]

Am I correct in thinking that the threads on the two bits of brake pipe supplying the oil to the centre plate are 3/8 UNF? the screws mic up at 0.380 and are a very tight fit. Also is it possible to improve the flexible pipes from pump to engine along the lines of the later type, without replacing the pump itself. The current transparent plastic pipe looks vulnerable and the two little clamps seem to be asking for trouble? Dave

[Richard Negus]

Hi Dave,Correct, threads are 3/8 - 24UNF.You could make the pipes in 4mm steel pipe, using the Wade connector of the later black pipes to make the connection to the engine pipes. Aero rotary engines use solid, and no problems with fracturing.Maybe use the smallest Goodridge-type hoses - but be sure that the throttle levers are not restricted.Alternatively, I have a drawer full of dismantled pumps ; you could build your internal parts into a later type of housing.R.

[Dell Boy]

I`m surprised your bike has clear plastic oil pump feed pipes. On my IP2 in the `80`s they broke in Police service due to heat hardening & wrecked the engine or possibly shortly after leaveing police service. After an expensive [£1,500] rebuild the west london Norton Rotary "Specialist" could not obtain new oil pipes from the factory so stretched the remains of the defective oil pipe & connected it to the pump. It broke in under 100 miles & wrecked the new engine. They would accept no liability for the engine failure. It is my believe that you must not use the clear plastic pipes. Over to the experts? Derek.

[Interpol2471]

My IP2 has the clear oil pipes from the pump and I have not had a problem

[Dell Boy]

I was told at the time that the plastic became hard & brittle due to the heat & then cracked/snapped. All my bikes have been fitted with the thin black pipes. Did they find a more suitable clear plastic pipe? Again I was told at the time [1989] that black pipe kits were being sent out to fit on to early bikes due to failures. Over to the experts again. Derek.

[Interpol2471]

I think I remember Richard telling me the black pipes also cracked ???Richard ????

[rustynuts]

When I aquired my IP2, the oil pipes were brittle and one banjo ferrule was not gripping the pipe. The gearbox oil level was high too, suggesting a leak, so I think I caught it just in time before it popped off completely. I replaced them with what I think was the last set of plastic pipes NML had, but it is definately a future job to replace with metal before they degrade too much.What is the purpose of the brass cylinders in the two delivery pipes? I presume they are check valves to stop the oil draining down while the bike is standing. Does the later type set up have any such device?

[Richard Negus]

What is the purpose of the brass cylinders in the two delivery pipes? I presume they are check valves to stop the oil draining down while the bike is standing. Does the later type set up have any such device?

Yes, check valves.Later pumps, with pressed-in elbows rather than bajos, have check valves in the elbows.Engines produced by Mid-West had pumps converted from elbows to banjos and steel pipes - but no check valves. Lack of check valves didn't seem to cause a problem ; the oil can't run back, or forward, throught the pump.R.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys, My Classic still has the original plastic oil pipes, and last time I checked they were still nice and flexable, but I will keep a close eye on them,could they be replaced with braided petrol hose?

[johnbirchjar]

Forget last question,will answer myself,braided petrol hose not a good idea,would perish over time ,perished material(rubber?)getting into oilways, very expensive!!! J.B.

[gripper]

Well the Genuine Factory Box worked very well. I used an old screwdriver under the RH centrestand leg to adjust the height and it all lined up perfectly. After I had replaced the clutch and engine sprocket I was feeling pretty good about my progress, until I noticed a needle roller bearing sculling round looking lonely in the parts tray. Luckily the Loctite hadn't set hard and it all came apart easily and the starter ring has a bit of support now. (makes me wonder what other bits I'll have left over when it's all finished) The next task is to bend some bundy tubing to fit nicely from banjo to Wade coupling and then solder the banjo on the tube. I tried some of the black plastic pipe but it doesn't seem to bend easily and as a result doesn't line up without putting some strain on the system. Had a look at the gearbox innards. All looks good and there was a silver sticker on the back of the gear box saying it had been remanufactured. Unfortunately the rest of it was damaged and illegible, probably where the starter motor contacted it on previous assembly. Difficult to understand why the gearbox makes so much noise when all inside looks so good.

[Richard Negus]

quote="gripper" I noticed a needle roller bearing sculling round looking lonely in the parts tray.Very brave of you to admit it ! a silver sticker on the back of the gear box saying it had been remanufacturedNever seen one of those ! Might have been rebuilt by Wealdstone who were an MOD sub-contractor for various engines and gearbox overhauls. Difficult to understand why the gearbox makes so much noise when all inside looks so good.As Westbury Garages said in 1981 of my 1979 Saab gearbox "Yes Sir, they all do that". Later I found Saabs had a two year warranty at that time and they had to rebuild it FOC.R.

[graham]

quote from Richard:There is a remote possibility that the double-row ball bearing in the gearbox cover plate is beginning to fail, allowing the clutch assembly to move to the right, but that wouldn't affect the drive sprocket position which is governed by the roller bearing on the sleeve gear.Agreed, the bearing behind the clutch fails regularly but that's because it's a single row heavy duty ball bearing (like a 6304 but with 10 balls.)The double race bearing you're thinking of is fitted to the F1 (SKF3305 with the centre ground out and a circlip groove machined in.)Graham

[MrB]

[quote]As Westbury Garages said in 1981 of my 1979 Saab gearbox "Yes Sir, they all do that". Later I found Saabs had a two year warranty at that time and they had to rebuild it FOC.R./quote]My IP2 gearbox is very noisy and it's only 25 years old. Any chance of a warranty repair??Johnny

[Interpol2471]

OOO OOO Me too please

[Richard Negus]

Of course ! Just take it back to the original manufacturer and they'll probably do it while you wait. I'm sure you realise that police IP2's have a lifetime warranty.R.

[Malc]

Beware of lifetime warranty's, cus when their broke their life's expired and so has the warranty!

[Richard Negus]

There's a thread on the boating forum I watch about a ten year old Musto sailing jacket, that was originally sold with a written 'lifetime guarantee'.The jacket now leaks and Musto say its 'life' is complete, therefore the warranty doesn't apply.It's generated a lot of posts, mostly along the line of ".......Trading Standards...." but Musto now have to defend the position they've taken. An early offer of a discount on a new jacket would probably have saved all the adverse publicity they're now getting.R.