more amps

johnbirchjar
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more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:50 am

Hi guys, guess who? Very Happy,more brain picking in affraid red face.
Looking at the alternators 'twix Classic and Commander,one would assume the latter to be more powerful,(It's twice as big!)more Amps?,but no,they are the same(about 13amps)which, unfortunatly for me, is not enough to keep the battery toped up( 'cos I have now converted the Commander to a 'leclic water pump,)so what with that, the 'leclic fan AND riding with the lights on,13 amps is not enough,so my question is,How to get more amps?Upgrade the VCR?('cos I assume this is what controls the amps into the battery)or have I got this completely wrong,rgds,J.B.

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Postby Richard Negus » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:36 pm

Hi John,
The Commander generator is rated at 28 amps, more than enough to cope with a 'leccy pump and all the lights.
Where did you see the figure of 13 amps for it?
R.
Slower, slower! Now the fear of even more points overcomes the thrill of speed.

BlackIP2
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Re: more amps

Postby BlackIP2 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:19 pm

According to physics, watts = amps × volts, and in my IP2 workshop manual the generator is rated at 220w.
That should mean that 220 watts = just over 18 amps x 12 volts.
I think for bike electrical power consumption you'd be better off calculating how much watts in total you are using as opposed to amps? I thought amps is normally used to just calculate what size fuse you put into a circuit?
The Commander uses the Yamaha XJ900 VCR - and the XJ's generator was rated at 252w so should be more than enough to cope with the rotary 220w alternators. My IP2 has the XJ VCR and works fine, though I had to fiddle with the wiring to get the tacho to work.
No doubt the more electrically qualified in the club will be able to clarify, or dare I say, throw more light onto the subject...

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Postby Richard Negus » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:30 pm

I don't have the benefit of an IP2 Manual to hand, but I always thought that generator had a 180 w output.
On the other hand, the Commander has a much bigger Kokusan generator rated, I think, at around 330 w.
John's Classic now has a Commander engine (and generator) installed.
The bigger generator was chosen for the police Commander so that, at an incident, it could be left with the strobes, lights, and radio running, the engine idling and the radiator fan cycling on and off, without flattening the batteries.
R.
Slower, slower! Now the fear of even more points overcomes the thrill of speed.

johnbirchjar
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Re: more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:14 am

Hi Richard,the 13amps are what are regestering on the amp metre,(which is wired direct to the battery)even so,
the alternator on the Classic has never poked out enough power for me to run BOTH the H/Lights on dipped beam for the Triumph fairing fitted to said Classic,(this problem came to light soon after I fitted the Triumph Fairing way back in 2006,and it took me quite a while to fathom what the problem was,(one of the downsides to NOT having an amp metre wink ) I then subsiquentley disconnected one,the other to run on dip, and only run both on main beam when filtering,or when riding alone on minor roads,so this was the method that I used over the years to keep successive batteries from going flat evil.
The amp metre was fitted after the second VCR/Electronic Ignition melt down evil(long story)
I don't think the lack of amps is down to the currant VCR,the bike is now on its fourth,and the previous one never charged above 13 amps either exclaim.Any thoughts?rgds,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:40 am

Hi guys/Richard,(This is SO embarrassing red face exclaim)My Classic is fitted with VOLT Metre exclaim,NOT an Amp Metre.
Even so,When using the Classic originally, this still doesn't explain the lack of power to keep the battery charged up while running both H/Lights,even on dip beam.
Before fitting the Commander engine the Volt Metre,used to read just over 12v running with ONE H/light on dipped beam with the Classic Alternator.
The Commander Alternator reads bang on 12v with 'leclic pump,Rad Fan and ONE H/Light on dipped beam,but reads under 12v when I switch to both H/Lights on High Beam,(which leads me to think that I will be having flat battery problems evil,or am I worrying needlessly?(I am a bit paranoid about "Flat Batteries" after all the probs:in the early days,caused by the twin H/Lights on the Triumph fairing)Comments please smiley.
Once again, apologies for the earlier miss information(It's an age thing wink)rgds,J.B.

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Postby Richard Negus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:11 pm

John,
In standard form, the normal load taken by the P53 electrics is:
Headlamp main beam 60w
or
Daylamps 72w
Ignition 30w approx.
Rear lamps 12w
No plate lamp 4w
Total : 118w
So plenty in hand for the occasional fan, brake lights, indicators, heated grips, rear fog lights, and horn.
I had a voltmeter on my Commander (pre-automotive alternator), wired between the ignition switch and ground, which typically indicated 13 - 13.5 volts during normal running.
What wattage are your twin headlamps?
R
Slower, slower! Now the fear of even more points overcomes the thrill of speed.

BlackIP2
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Re: more amps

Postby BlackIP2 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Commander generator, according to the rider's handbook, is rated at 370 watts. Even more power!

johnbirchjar
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Re: more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am

Hi Richard,H/Light Bulbs? bog standard 55/60.
Quite some time ago I thought about upgrading to more powerful bulbs but decided against it 'cos of the "Flat Battery" prob's.
I am still wondering if I have been fitting the wrong VCR's(all three of them?surely not)I will have a bit of a "Surf" and see what I come up with wink,I will report anon.J.B.

johnbirchjar
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Re: more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi guys,reporting back.
Had a bit of a "surf" and am still none the wiser,no info: on how much VCR's regulate(amps or volts) to the battery,or indeed if some send more than others,so some guidance from you guys would be appreciated.
Going back to one of your previous comments Richard,you stated your Commander showed a 13 or 13.5volts reading with Lights,Fan,Heated Grips,ect;
I ran the bike yesterday and didn't come even close to those readings exclaim, with Fan,Pump and BOTH H/Lights on main beam and the V/Metre registered under 12v,I then ran with just One H/Light on dip and it just crept over the 12v,not even 12.5 evil,so once again I am of the opinion that the problem is with the VCR, 'cos these readings are about the same as I used to get from the Classic with no Pump or Fan to cope with,(albeit,with a much less powerful Alternator),but strange none the less that both Alternators showed almost the same reading's.J.B.
PS,Lots of snow down here in Essex this morning cool.J

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Re: more amps

Postby Dave » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:27 pm

Hi John, i am certainly no expert on electrics, but have you measured the voltage at the battery with a independent meter, in case your voltmeter on the bike is out?, or you can buy cheap digital meters or the traffic light type real cheap to connect up as a temporary double check, i bough a voltage regulater made by Electrex World, [at the time the one they listed was wrong, but they replaced it with the correct one,] and on my Commander it gives around 14+ volts at the battery with lights off, which in my opinion is a bit high, but has caused no problems in the two/three years it's been fitted. Dave

johnbirchjar
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Re: more amps

Postby johnbirchjar » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:48 am

Hi Dave,Yep,that was one of the first things I did when I first had the flat Battery problems way back in '07 (after fitting the Triumph fairing with it's twin H/Lights.)
The reason for fitting the Volt Metre was because modern VCR's only have 2 wires(not 3 as the early ones fitted by Norton did,) the third one was for the Ignition Light,the omision of this third wire,(hence no Ignition Light) is that one has no idea when ones charging system isn't charging exclaim,(which I found to my cost on more than one occasion evil,)
When I raised the question with the supplier of the 1st replacement VCR of "How do I know when my charging system isn't working?"his answer was "Your Battery goes flat" "Its a bit late by then" was my retort,he then informed me that "No modern VCR's come with 3 wires" which seems to be the case,'cos I have yet to find one,hence the necessity of the fitting of a Volt Metre smiley,J.B.


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